DONATI CLINIC...Ho Lee She Heist

[JDouglee]

You're never going to innovate without pissing some people off. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[McKenzie]

Much said Derek, with fewer words than I have the ability not to write [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Dig

[McKenzie]

Hey here's a thought Bunny Brunel a very accomplished Bass player in his own right(Chick Corea and others etc.) just had Virg re-do all the drum tracks off of his L.A. Zoo revisited disc wonder why, it must of been because Virgil sucks or Bunny felt sorry for him, or you know maybe Bunny being such a slouch humself could not get anyone else to do it.

Dig

[blake1]

This is not a diss on Virgil.

There's always going to be someone bigger, stronger and faster. What matters is how it fits into the music. Those chops in the right setting will be great. It's how they are used for the music.

I just get bored if the music becomes all about the technique. Leaving something for the imagination is great sometimes.


It's like- the first tune blows my socks off, and then by the 3rd tune I'm looking for the fire exit.

"Just because you can doesn't mean you should".

but...... It's nice to have it WHEN it requires it [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[McKenzie]

From what I have heard(those who have the disc already, being it has just came out)) it is just as Blake stated that Bunny wanted and allowed Virg to use his technical greatness and great imagination to improve the song's and add his own flavor and uniqueness to the album, is not that what it is about. Guy's hire Vinnie and Weckl etc. not to sound like a drum program but to add their OWN touch of greatness technically and creatively whether it is pocket music or not.
I remember listening to Pattitucci's Sketchbook album for the first time and Vinnie is blowing all over that is why he was their to blow because it fit, it worked it made the music better. It sure was far more than pocket, in fact on some tunes most of it was not pocket , but it worked.

Dig

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 22, 2004 08:53 AM: Message edited by: Digital Man ]</font>

[GrooveYESmam]

I was not dissin' Virgil. Not sure who said this, but it's true. He should be commended for being himself. But as I said, drummers tend to miss the point. And the point is to play pocket. And Bunny, he's OK, great he hired Virgil. Virgil is by no means a session player. I like guys who can blow but save it for the right time and play a hell of a groove. Clinics like Virgils tend to create these drummers who can hardly play a groove with a band, yet have crazy chops and independence. I'm into drummers that have the tools to make music. And yes how albums a guy is on DOES tell you everything. It means that people are willing to ay big bucks to here this persons groove in their music.
And, Pocket, is not a style. Although Vince blows alot on Patitucci's CD, his pocket is still killin. You can have a great pocket while you're tearing it up.

[peter c]

I believe that Virgil can do whatever he wants and he's doing what he wants to do. I remember drummers that did that, in the past, like Tony Williams and Jack Dejohnette... just to name a couple. This is a good thing.

I remember Tony getting bashed for his 'outside' ideas. Posterity saw different as it usually does. Just because it is different doesn't mean it's not worthy.

When Virgil kicks below, he is usually driving a rhythm up top and I mean with jack-hammers! He grooves - just upside down, most of the time. That's Virgil. He can pocket it just fine. He's just wearing overalls that are inside-out.

There is no other and that's like there is no other Tony or Jack or Steve etc.

Everyone likes what they like and they're drawn to what they're drawn to. I love A LOT of different things and I like to think that I can see and hear through what I see and hear. As I did with Tony, during and through his criticisms, I will always side with Virgil as I have seen and believed and know that the future will look back favorably on him and his continuing contributions, as it did Tony, who I believe was and would be very proud of Virgil.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 22, 2004 09:46 AM: Message edited by: peter c ]</font>

[McKenzie]

Well your interpretation of Pocket is yours not other's we all have opinion's. How much of Virgil's material do you have. Listen to Moonbabies you might HATE the music but his Pocket is very good considering the complexity and creativity and his Meter dead on and the blowing is actually the much lesser of what is going on he pretty much locks in for the most part but whether he plays that way or not does not validate him or make him right or wrong one way or the other.

And no sorry alot of guy's get hired simply to do nothing but sound like a drum machine and nothing else, so what if they get big bucks that validates their drumming also no way, does not even make sense. Exactly why I shared the story about the guy who TRIED to venture out beyond the so called pocket and could not and to validate his lack of skill well let us trash more advanced drummers and I can validate my worth by money and sounding like
a drum machine on ten albums and fine if he that is what he wanted to do great I am sure he did it well, heck if we go by that then the guy who get's hired alot might be just because he is the lowest bid on the market, does not mean he is better or worse than someone else.

Again who got together and made up these rules, according to Tony Williams and others no one did some just make them up. The Pocket police, the jazz snobs,the pop purists, the Rock watchdog's, the prog or you suck crowd what a waste of time it is all WORTHY and worthwhile, no one has the right to say this is less meaningful because I do not dig the style or the pocket is not to my liking. Like I said I like fusion, prog and alot of jazz more than I like pop or rock or country or funk but hey what others are doing is just as valid and worthwhile whether I or others are into it.

Shawn Pelton and Keltner were brought up good solid drummers, to me nothing inspirational or really interesting BUT good none the less and worth while to listen to it works for what they are doing, and no more worthy or less worthy than a Virg or Vinnie, Weckl because they are not as innovative or creative or technically adept or their pocket sounds different. Sometimes it is as we always get back to a matter of taste but as Derek said let us commend the greatness in whatever style or pocket or non pocket, come on if it is not pocket music than it is not valid, this makes me laugh there is no absolute principle that was established just opinions and matters of taste. Today I listened to Cat Stevens and Jim Croce and Elton John and I love it nothing inspirational drumming wise but it is good and it works and is as valid as anything else.

Dig

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 22, 2004 08:55 AM: Message edited by: Digital Man ]</font>

[McKenzie]

Thanks Fuse GREAT review. Virg was Awesome! back in the 90's but he is on ANOTHER plane right now.
There is a short review back at the Pearl site where one of the Pearl Exec's got to see Virg very recently and said quote "HE is on a whole other level and is demolishing the present standards of what we think can be done on the instrument. "He is almost Super Human." End Quote.

And yes Virg might not be someone's cup of tea but as another Drummer who just saw him stated
"He makes those drums SING! he is very musical
though being extremely complex." He is by far the most musical and creative of the so called Extreme Drummers out there today IMO.

He is one of the Great Pioneer's and innovator's of our instrument Period. "He has raised the bar for all of us. A Quote from a Wonderful! and well known Austrian Drummer. [img]wink.gif[/img]

I have been really Digging Virgil's lessons on his site, even though it will be years digesting the lessons. But not only is he very complex, powerful and precise he plays with amazing fluidity and finesse. Whether with hands or feet the stuff he is laying down is somewhat advanced to VERY advanced but it is smooth as Butter! Check out the lessons and see for yourself

Dig

[peter c]

Fuse,

I knew you would say just what you said. How can anyone help themselves?

Virgil is a fire - a real inspiration. I love seeing his mechanics. He's constantly moving me and others.

I'm so happy that you got to see him. I'm trying to get him to come back to my area, right now.

[img]cool.gif[/img]